Monday, May 21, 2012

Dear Conservatives,


Yes, Virginia, the righties are well on their way to banning birth control:

"The problem in the new world of pharmacy is that we don't know how these pills are operating in any woman at any moment," said Kathy Ostrowski, state legislative director of Kansans for Life. "The potential for terminating a human life is very strong in these medicines being called contraceptives."

*  *  *

144 comments:

Anonymous said...

Certain individuals in the "Right to Life" movement in Kansas weren't so concerned about human life when it was Dr. George Tiller's life.

Tony Rugare said...

Are contaceptive speakeasy's in our future?

Erin O'Brien said...

Anon: "Right to lifers" also love kill at will/stand your ground laws.

Dunno, Tony. If you live in one of these states in a rural area and the pharmacist thinks you're gettin' them thar birth control pills in order to take a whole bunch as emergency contraception, he can just say "no" and is under no obligation to transfer the prescription.

Joe said...

Maybe I missed something here. Birth control is not banned, it just says a Pharmacist does not have to dispense the drug.

Kansans can still get their contraceptives (really a day after abortion pill) on line, from other drug stores etc.

I suspect the refusals will be few and far between.

But then I was wrong once...

Erin O'Brien said...

From the article:

The law states that no person can be required to provide any device or drug that he or she "reasonably believes may result in the termination of a pregnancy" - but does not specifically lay out which drugs could be refused.

So, you're wrong again, Joe. It is well within the pharmacist's power to deny BCPs, which contain the same hormones as emergency contraception.

And no, BCPs aren't banned yet. The GOP will probably just keep eroding access state by state until you have to have a 10-inch camera probe shoved up your puss in order to obtain a prescription for them from a federal judge--who will no doubt view the entire examination and have every right to deny said access based on a "moral objection." This is just the first step.

Erin O'Brien said...

Hey, I may be all washed up. Maybe this little news item will make the righties start mandating abortions for certain individuals.

Anonymous said...

How many jobs will this create? Perhaps Birth Control Monitoring Security Firms will spring up in this newly created market niche, significantly lowering the unemployment numbers.

Joe, since you've chosen to be present in this discussion perhaps you can explain how monitoring a woman's uterus is reflective of small government.


RJ

Two Flights Down said...

Next up, we will be going on witch hunts.

Erin O'Brien said...

Hey Joe,

I suspect the refusals will be few and far between.

Have you any idea how condescending that is?

Don't worry you're pretty little head, missies. We'll hardly every use this law ... hardly ever. You'll behave yourselves, right?

It's like holding a loaded gun to someone's head and saying, "No worries, buddy. I won't pull the trigger."

Can you imagine if you walked in to get your Cialis and the pharmacist said, "Sure, buddy. You show me a marriage license and I'll show you the goods." What if he said he needed to get your wife's approval?

"Have her bring a photo ID."

Oh yeah. What do you care? That'll never happen.

Anonymous said...

Remember Two Flights that the 2008 GOP Vice Presidential Nominee conducted exorcisms of witches in her home church.

RJ

Joe said...

Still not sure where I am wrong. The bill does not ban contraception.

As you mentioned in your response.

Do not let the facts get in the way of a good headline.

Anonymous said...

Fact- Joe voted for a Witch Exorcist in 2008. The question of intact reality testing is answered. With any lcuk you might benefit from medication.

RJ

Bill said...

I love the "don't tread on me" logo. I'm not sure of the significance of the long horn steer though. Wouldn't a cat be more appropriate? On a serious note; there are lot's of conservative women. Isn't Sebelius, the abortion queen, from Kansas?

Joe said...

Wow RJ, I guess asking questions of your hero is tantamount to a need for medication?

I asked a question, where in the law is contraception banned?

It is not.

Beyond the question there is just a lot of assumption. Emphasis on the 'ass' part

Way to have an open mind...

Anonymous said...

@Joe-

You questioned the facts supporting the headline.

I questioned your ability to discern fact from fiction.

RJ

Erin O'Brien said...

Read the post again, Joe. I never said anything was banned. I said: "the righties are well on their way to banning birth control."

Joe said...

Is there anyone who has advocated banning contraception outright? Has there been legislation proposed that takes this radical step? I assure you the number of Americans who believe we should go back to pre-pill days in miniscule.

I ask with the understanding this action may brand me as divorced from reality and in need of medication.

Thou shalt not question liberal hyperbole!

Erin O'Brien said...

Well, I guess I'll have to reference some insignificant nut job ...

WAIT! Looky here! My job's easy. I don't have to go any further than the roster of GOP presidential candidates, Hoose.

You've got Ron Paul's "we the people" act that would allow states to ban contraception and disallow such bans to be ruled unconstitutional by SCOTUS; and then there's Ricky Santorum, with his "danger's of contraception" speech.

One of the things I will talk about that no President has talked about before is I think the dangers of contraception in this country, the whole sexual libertine idea. Many in the Christian faith have said, “Well, that’s okay. Contraception’s okay.”

It’s not okay because it’s a license to do things in the sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be. They’re supposed to be within marriage, they are supposed to be for purposes that are, yes, conjugal, but also [inaudible], but also procreative. That’s the perfect way that a sexual union should happen. We take any part of that out, we diminish the act. And if you can take one part out that’s not for purposes of procreation, that’s not one of the reasons, then you diminish this very special bond between men and women

Erin O'Brien said...

What you need to understand, Hoose, is that the hormones used in emergency contraception are the same as what's used in regular BCPs.

Really.

If they ban one, they ban the other.

Maybe if the righties keep it up with this one, the country will finally wake up.

Joe said...

Thank you for the sources.

Ron Paul is a lunatic and Santorum was defeated as well, so I guess that says something for the run of the mill Republican?

Fringe elements do not reflect the whole. Ralph Nader and Roseanne no more represent your average blue collar union Democrat than Ron Paul does your average Republican.

I will be wrong if it happens, but banning The Pill is not going to happen in my lifetime. We may determine it is not up to taxpayers to pay for free birth control to the masses, but making it illegal -- nope.

I think the number of pharmacists who refuse to fill the 'scripts will be miniscule. I think it is panic over nothing, just like the NRA bunch goes crazy at any mention of gun laws.

Erin O'Brien said...

Fringe element, eh? How many states did Santorum, win, Hoose?

Eight.

And no, they won't stand up and make it illegal in one fell swoop. They'll just keep chipping away at access the same way they did with abortion.

As soon as they get it into the right-to-lifers heads that the hormone in emergency contraception induces abortion, it will be a slow fight against it. It will be harder and harder to get, more and more regulated.

As for your lifetime, in 1980, would you have believed that smoking a cigarette in your home on a Saturday morning could cost you a job offer? That you wouldn't be able to light up at any bar or restaurant?

Bill said...

Actually, Joe, it's a lot easier to ban guns than contraceptives. More likely too. Also, to the best of my knowledge, no group is asking the government to pay for their guns.

Joe said...

Erin you are right -- see what the nanny state and all-intrusive Government has wrought?

haha

Anonymous said...

I've worked as a Social Worker for 29 years. NOT ONCE have I encountered an indigent client who said "A guy from the government knocked on my door the other day and signed me up for food stamps."
I attended my dayghters 8th grade/middle school graduation last friday. There was an award given to by The Fellowship of Christian Athletes. The sposor stood up and said "We have church every Wednesday before school and we'd like to recognize the athlete who best exemplifies christian values." In a rare moment of impulse control I restrained myself from standing and saying "There is one god, Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger!" Now who do you think would have been horrified if I had acted before I thought-advocates of a social safety net or "small government" conservatives?

My daughters uteruses are nobodies fucking business but their own and its' the FUCKING AMERICAN CHRISTIANS that keep trying to CRAM THEIR VALUES DOWN ALL AMERICAS THROAT. So all you conservatives can take your nanny state horseshit and stick it up your asses. IT IS A FUCKING SHAM!.

RJ

Bill said...

A social worker who doesn't suggest food stamps to a client who needs them is not doing his/her job.

8th grade boys would definitely like to make 8th grade girls uteruses, their business.

Nanny state: helmets, seat belts, no smoking in bars, etc.

Passive agressive social workers: Huh?

VideoDude said...

Abortion and unwanted pregnancies are at an all time historical low, because of contraception. So naturally the Tea-GOP wants to get ridf of it!

After all, abstinance works so well. Just ask "Sister Sarah's" daughter.

Women use BCP's for many reasons. Do a search and you will see. It is called "The Google".

Anonymous said...

"A social worker who doesn't suggest food stamps to a client who needs them is not doing his/her job."-Bill

Reading Comprehension for the win. Go back and read the statement. I said no one had knocked on anyones door offering food stamps.

Should I ever have the opportunity to meet you in public Bill there will be nothing passive about my aggression.

RJ

twinklysparkles said...

Ditto Erin on everything.

Joe, I think you are full of shit.

Bill, 8th Grade boys may be getting hard-ons but they really have no interest in what a uterus is. It's not even pertinent.

I continue to hold my head up high and ask all sisters to join in full fucking slut-dom.


this one never gets old: http://twinklysparkles.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/the-way-it-is-or-twinklys-manifesto-of-the-pussy/

Mike Lawless said...

It's my country...not your religion.

Bill said...

A recent poll of composite women, suggests they are split, 45/45 on the question of whether or not there is a war on women. The other 10% don't give a shit.

Bill said...

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of threats, I will fear no evil commenter....

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

Uh, I think I'd rather discuss the borscht Erin enjoyed in her previous post.

Al
TRAG

P.S. On another note, I made some really good aioli last night, using garlic scapes. Went great on the brisket sandwich I made for my wife.

twinklysparkles said...

Al:

GARLIC SCAPES PESTO IS DA BOMB

http://twinklysparkles.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/twinkly-cooks-garlic-scapes-pesto/

twinkly

Anonymous said...

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of threats, I will fear no evil commenter...."-Bill

Whistling past the graveyard Bill? I possess a hoodie, skittles and a conservatives worst nightmare, an intact forebrain. Mine against yours, anytime, anyplace.

RJ

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

Twinkly,

Yes, yes, and yes. Garlic scapes are a wonderful thing.

Oh no, I agreed on something with someone who's political views are different than mine. What's next? Cats and dogs living together? ;-)

The Market is tomorrow where I live, and I'm going to ask them for more.

Al
TRAG

Bill said...

Al's new handle: Cory Booker. :)

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

Al's new handle: John "Fucking" Wayne.

Al
TRAG

twinklysparkles said...

Al, I recall agreeing with you before, or at least an agreeable interaction. The Owner's Manual is an owner's manual for human beings after all. Why not? We all have something to learn.

This might sound cheesy and false and fake and silly and new-age-y, but I assure you, it is not, it is me and it is genuine. And it is also simple:

Al, the divine in me bows to the divine in you.

And garlic scapes are a heavenly wonder. We don't have them yet, too early. But soon!
twinkly

Erin O'Brien said...

Hey gang.

Back on topic because I just have to repost this comment I put up over at Joe's place, where a whole herd of righties are clamoring:

Y'all can bellyache all you want about what your Medicare and insurance covers, it really has nothing to do with my post or Joe's post for that matter.

My point is this: A woman's reproductive right--or any civil right--should not be curtailed under the guise of someone else's religious or moral beliefs. It's bullshit and if you no likey me saying so, ask James Madison.

If you're going to have "moral" problems with a legally prescribed substances, you shouldn't be a pharmacist.

Joe said...

Assume for the sake of discussion the mutant issue from the X-Mmen was real. Say Congress passed a law indicating all mutants had to take a prescription drug that suppressed the mutant genes. Would a pharmacist have the moral right to refuse to issue that drug?
After all if he does not want to issue a legal prescribed drug he should not be a pharmacist...

@RJ, wow, the anger. It is Ok for people to have different opinions. Since I am just a dumb old redneck, I am not sure what made you so angry at the 8th grade graduation. Did othe rclubs and groups give out awards; French Club, Sunshine, Key Club, student council? Did the school force your daughter to join FCA or to attend before school prayer? Was she forced to pray in school? Or is it just that people were doing stuff with which you do not agree?

If that is the case, is it your suggestion we all bend to your worldview? Is no one allowed to have different beliefs.

I suggest your daughter for an Islamic study group before school, if that is her religious bent.

Finally , by not issuing Plan B drugs, how is that getting into anyone's uterus? Sex is a voluntary action. If you were not able to ge tthe drugs you need from the Rx you desire, you will have to wait or plan ahead.

Sorry to write so much Erin.

Erin O'Brien said...

You write all you want, Joe.

Dunno about your example, but I'll go along and play.

I've got plenty of moral problems with the sale of certain guns to certain people, which is why I'll probably never work in a gun shop.

Sex is voluntary. Rape is not. If you have a scared little girl in some podunk town who's just been date raped by the Sherrif's son and she goes to the local pharmacy to procure some emergency contraception and gets told "no," what's she supposed to do? Use mail order? She doesn't have time.

So then she spends a few weeks wanting to DIE until she sees whether or not two pink lines appear in a little white stick.

Who do you think is using emergency contraception, Joe? The vast majority of rape victims never report the incident.

GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR BODIES UNLESS YOU ARE INVITED.

twinklysparkles said...

The best and clearest thing I've read on the war on MY FUCKING BODY. Period. Fuck you if you have a dick between your legs and think you understand. You know what your job is? TO SUPPORT the women in your life whose rights to control their own fucking bodies is under attack.

http://marmalade-meg.blogspot.com/2012/05/story-of-how-at-38-years-old-i-found.html

twinklysparkles said...

are under attack

Bill said...

A little girl raped by the Sherrif's son in a little town with only one pharmacy that happens to be run by a right wing whacko pharmacist? Jesus, Erin, why not make it even more unlikely by making it incest too?

Reality check.

Erin O'Brien said...

Gee Bill. You win. Men in power never take inappropriate sexual advantage.

How about we just say any rape, then? Is that better?

Or even better yet, why don't you righties mind your own goddamn business?

Anonymous said...

@Joe...

"Wow RJ the anger... Or is it just that people were doing stuff with which you do not agree?"

Nobody in the French Club was advocating hate. Your comments ignore the fact that The Christian Church as manifest in the so-called "Religious Right" are the most destructive, devisive demographic in American Politics today and that people like your self genuflect in their general direction because, after all, they're talking about
GOD. Then they're given all sorts of license to dictate behavioral imperatives that for which the French Club would be disbanned. I have tried to be a decent, tolerant human being but I'm now prepared to accept that even after 22 years of continuous sobriety I'm basically a surly drunk. Count me squarely in Richard Dawkins corner from here on out when he recommends we start calling believers out on their delusional thinking. Why should I encourage anyone to think in a way that ignores evidence? It intirues me that the "Climate Deniers" will argue particulate counts in the atmosphere to astronomically minute levels to prove their point but when one asks for ONE verifiable piece of evidence for the existence of god they are aghast.

Namaste Motherfucker.

RJ

Bill said...

Hey! I'm a believer in your "by invitation only" demand/request. I guess you could say that it IS my business since I've accepted a few times.

Joe said...

Erin,

I suspect in your scenario there is a hospital or pharmacy in the next town that will be glad to help in that situation. the Christian Righties have not taken over the world. Unless the evil sheriff has blocked off every road leaving the county.

Evil Sheriff: " Tha tbitch ain't leavin' this here town. She is gonna have Jounior's love child whether she wants to or not."

If that occurs, I will give up my frequent flyer miles and hotel points yto make sure the girl in question can get the medical attention she needs. I wil bring my guns and help spring here if need be.

Joe said...

@RJ,

...except I have not been to church in more than 35 years. I have never advocated or tried to convert even one person to my religious beliefs (the Church Of Joe), I should add you have NO IDEA what those beliefs may be.

And even though you should mind your own fucking business when it comes to my religion, I will explain the situation to you if only to demonstrate to all your complete ignorance and built in prejudice. My kids were all raised without religion, on the basis they should form their own opinion and belief structure. What a remarkably liberal ideal.

But lets us not let facts get in the way of your asinine assumptions. I bow to your imagined superior intellect, worldview and complete and demonstrable intolerance and ignorance.

Welcome to the face of the American Left.

Bill said...

Joe must be watching late night television evangelists or getting visits from the Angel Moroni. How else can you explain the right wing nuttiness? I know that my occassional conversation with Father Larry, at Starbucks, keeps me on the whacky right.

Anonymous said...

"Welcome to the face of the American Left."-Joe
Being presumptuous of course but...
I speak for one person, Randy Johnson.
However if my screeds were from a conservative perspective there'd be so many people swinging from my ballsack I'd require an orchiectomy. When a bunch of conservatives come out and tell Michele Bachman to STFU then I'll believe there is a bipartisn disdain for evangelical christian public policy making.

RJ

Joe said...

That makes as much sense as me saying I will respect the Democrat party when each and every one of you repudiates Bill Ayres as a terrorist and Anti-American Communist sympathizer.

Then and only then will I believe there is a bipartisan support for socialist public policy making.

You may have the last word. I know it will be astoundingly ignorant.

VideoDude said...

The ignorance is men who think they have the right to tell women what to do with their bodies.

Would anyone really like a pharmicist or an employer with the right to contradict a doctor?

Anyone who thinks rape and incest does not happen everyday is ignorant, unfeeling and out of touch with reality. Which describes most Teapublicans who post on this blog and others. I repeat again, unwanted pregnancies and abortions are at an all time low, because of contraception. Not to mention the women who use BCP's for a variety of medical issues. Look it up, it is called "The Google"!

VideoDude said...

I repeat again, again, unwanted pregnancies and abortions are at an all time low, because of contraception.

Joe said...

I guess I am just slow, I still do not understand how by allowing a pharmacist to opt out of filling a plan B prescription interferes in any way with what a woman does with her body. No contraceptives are banned. No pills outlawed. Anyone can still get an abortion, a pill, whatever. One may be inconvenienced, but life is full of difficulties.

Guess what, flyover country is full of towns that do not even have a pharmacy or hospital or even a doctor! How do those people cope?

Here is a statement of position:Contraceptives are a very good thing. VD you get no argument from me

What a woman does with her body is none of my business. It is not any of my concern if she takes contraceptives (no matter the reason)has an abortion, or shaves her pubes and tattoos a smiley face on her Mons. I do not care. I cannot be more plain.

I also believe no one has a right to force a doctor or pharmacist to perform or aid in an abortion if they have moral objections.

It is not my right impose my value set upon you, nor you upon me.

VideoDude said...

But it is okay for a phamicist to deny the medication prescribed by a doctor?

As you said not every little town has a phamacy. So taking you argument: Let say a woman has to drive to the next city to get the medicine prescibed by a doctor. But the pharmicist is a Tea Bagger, now she has to drive to the next city or the next or the next....

What is it about contraception that scares the Right so much? I don't fucking get it! The ignorance from the Tea-GOP is astounding!

Erin O'Brien said...

Joe. If some fundamental shitbag decides the seven deadly sins are God's way of punishing you, then couldn't a person have a "moral objection" to treating obesity-related disease (gluttony=sin) or the tan mom's inevitable melanoma (vanity=sin)?

Sorry, Mr. Smith, but you ate your way into this mess and that diabetes is God's way of punishing you. I'm afraid I'll only dispense this medication to person's with Type I. Now good luck and God Bless.

Let me guess--that's different.

And the reason I am making such at stink about this idiotic Kansas law is because this is only going to expand and expand and expand until emergency contraception is regulated out of the picture.

The insane righties have devastated abortion access. Their next stops are emergency contraception and then regular contraception.

Now if you want to really read something worthwhile, take the time to plow through this link Twinks posted above.

Men simply have no idea. None.

VideoDude said...

@Erin: 100%

Joe said...

what if you owned a book store in a little town and the Government forced you to sell Bibles?

VideoDude said...

The way to stop the insanity from expanding? VOTE DEMOCRAT!

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

RJ is the "Big Unit?" You know, the retired pitcher? Who'da thunk? ;-)

Al
TRAG

VideoDude said...

Gee, Joe now who is stretching the argument? WTF? You really don't have any supporting arguments, do you?

Actually, you side would love not only to force every bookstore to carry the bible, but to force all Americans to read it.

Give me one argument, supported with facts, for banning contraception.

I repeat again, again, again, unwanted pregnancies and abortions are at an all time low, because of contraception. This doesn't mention the women whose health is better becuase of BCP use.

VideoDude said...

This from Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/02/08/teen-pregnancy-rates-reach-dramatic-40-year-low-in-us/

"...The declines in teen pregnancy have been nothing short of extraordinary," Sarah Brown, CEO of The National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy said. "Make no mistake, the credit for this remarkable progress goes to teens themselves who have, over the past two decades, adopted a less sex, MORE CONTRACEPTION strategy -- one that is clearly working.

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

@ Video Dude: I don't think anyone here is arguing that contraception should be banned (I could be wrong, though). I think the issue is more of a moral one, with strong passions on both sides. Some feel that those whose religious, social, or other views lead them to believe that contraception is amoral should not be forced by the government or any other entity to provide it. Others feel it should be made available to those who need/want it regardless of the moral/social reservations of the individuals/organizations/employers providing it. This is, IMHO the "crux of the biscuit," as Frank Zappa would say. Just an observation.

And no, I'm not weighing in on the issue as I feel any commentary I might make on it would not contribute much to the discussion.

BTW, more on the "Big Unit" here: http://www.alicecooperstown.com/. Check out the menu.

Al
TRAG

Joe said...

V-Dude, did you read anything in my previous post? I cannot give you a reason to ban contraception because I have no issues with contraception. take the pill. Want an abortion, get one it is none of my business. I am all for reducing teen pregnancy. As a parent the idea that a baby is unwanted is heartbreaking. Where we may disagree is on who should pay for it and who should be forced to provide it.

I'm not sure why you are convinced I would want to force you to carry Bibles. I don't think any private businessman should be forced to sell an item with moral objections to him or her.

Erin -- read the link. I have no serious issues with anything she writes.

Not all conservatives are Christian Fundamentalists. Many are fiscal conservatives. By the same token, the "left" also covers a broad spectrum of political positions.

Despite the vitriol directed at me, I have enjoyed this conversation. I am surprised that supposed proponents of freedom and choice have so little regard for those who might think differently.

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

@ Joe:

"I am surprised that supposed proponents of freedom and choice have so little regard for those who might think differently."

Hey, if you enjoy this conversation, you should move to Vermont - You Know How I Feel. You'll have conversations just like this on a daily basis.

Al
TRAG

P.S. Part of wv: "asgreec." I somehow think it's not a good idea to have a greasy ass. Just sayin'.

VideoDude said...

@Joe and Al: Read the laws that Teapublican state governments are passing. Are they about jobs? No. Are they about deficit reduction? No. Are they about taking away a person's right to privacy and to take any medication they or they're doctor seems neccesary? Yes.

When the battle for the ACA was going on the Right kept bringing up the lie about government death panels and how it was wrong for a government to get between a doctor and patient. But it is okay for a pharmicist or a CEO to decide persons medical treatment over the advice of their own personal physician. You say that you don't deny their rights, but yet you want to make it as hard as possible for a person to recieve what a board certified mnedical professional has told them they need.

I have respect for those with differing opinions, however when those opinions are devoid of respect for others and their privacy, I call them out!

It is beteeen a doctor and his patient. If a pharmicist can't do his job (which is to despense medicine precribed by a Medical Doctor), then he/she is free to pursue another profession!

Joe said...

V-dude,

You are right. It is clear from my comments that anyone who does not pull a straight "D" ticket wants to criminalize all contraception, and mandate daily prayer and Bible readings in the schools. We shall insist upon studying creationism and ban Darwin's books. Every Republican has advocated we brand a scarlet A upon the chest of anyone having and adulterous affair and a big old S for slut on anyone participating in premarital sex. You can tell by my comments it is my goal to have every woman barefoot and preggers and only white guys should get to vote.

It is obvious anyone who does not agree with you completely wants to relegate abortions to the back alley with rusty coat hangers. Anyone who votes for a dreaded Republican wants concentration camps for liberals. You are on to us. It is our plan to arm ourselves with our stockpile of guns and shoot down lefties in a blaze of gun smoke and hatred while stoning suspected witches and burning books in our spare time.

We plan on making "the gays" sport a pink star and close all of the porn shops.

V-dude, you have it all figured out. You have found the secret code embedded in the phrase "reduce spending". We are all really just Rush Robots waiting on orders to march on the Statehouse and to take over the Capital.

We want poor people to die, and we are all rich fuckers using Lincolns and Jacksons to light our fireplaces and cigars. Lowly Washingtons we use for toilet paper. We cannot wait to bring back slavery and we all know us Righties won't be happy until our factories a manned by 8 year olds.

You are right. It is all teabagger's fault.

Everything.

I now see the light.

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

I dunno. I still think a greasy ass is a bad idea.

Al
TRAG

Erin O'Brien said...

Actual quote from Pastor Charles Worley of the Providence Road Baptist Church in NC:

“Build a great big, large fence – 50 or 100 miles long – and put all the lesbians in there,” Worley said. “Fly over and drop some food. Do the same thing with the queers and the homosexuals, and have that fence electrified so they can't get out. Feed them. And you know in a few years, they'll die out. You know why? They can't reproduce."

--text

Add that sort of shitbaggery to Santorum saying that "As President" he intends to address the evils of birth control, Jamie Dimon saying "oops" over more absurd trading debacles (as he pockets a multi million dollar bonus and fights any regulation tooth and nail), and JP Morgan up to no good over the Facebook IPO, and you're sarcastic rant doesn't look so cartoonish.

Remember the proposed unnecessary vaginal probe test in Virgina for any woman seeking an abortion?

I honestly wonder if women will be rounded up and have to have their IUD's removed if the "personhood" amendments start to pass.

No, I'm not being silly. Listen to their rhetoric:

Such "contraceptives" are not contraceptive, but are mechanical (IUD) or chemical (pills) abortifacient "birth control." So when the abortion industry says that personhood would outlaw contraceptives, they’re either lying now, or they were lying then, for they’ve spent decades telling women that such chemicals did not kill a living embryo.

From Personhood Colorado.

Got it? Everyone of those personhood amendments would have outlawed the IUD.

I miss the good righties. And if your party is going to survive, you moderates had better start talking louder and louder because right now, the "fringe" element is the only voices we're hearing.

Anonymous said...

"You may have the last word. I know it will be astoundingly ignorant."-Joe.

orchiectomy.

Play Ball!

RJ

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

I knew it! RJ is Randy Johnson, the pitcher!

Al
TRAG

P.S. Part of wv: "orklma." I wonder if that's an Ork from The Lord of The Rings related to Obama.

Anonymous said...

@TRAG-

I think Obama is from Middle Earth. The same domain from which come my imagined intelligence and 100 mph fastball.

Rj

Anonymous said...

Today, May 24, is the anniversary of the Battle of the Denmark Strait during the Battle of The Atlantic, in 1941. The German battleship Bismarck, accompanied by the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen was attempting to break out into the Atlantic shipping lanes. The Bismarck was a 50,000 ton vessel armed with 8-15" guns capable of sinking anything the British Royal Navy could meet her with, not to mention capable of savaging any merchant traffic she came across. A few weeks at sea could have shut down the vital Atlantic lifeline to the British, still holding out alone against the Nazis.

Aware of the Bismarck's sortie from aerial surveillance and spies in Nazi occupied Norway, the Royal navy dispatched forces to block the possible avenues Bismarck could take to access the North Atlantic. The westernmost, the Denmark Strait between Greenland and Iceland was covered by the 42,000 ton battle cruiser HMS Hood,accompanied by the brand new battleship HMS Prince of Wales and accompanying lighter vessels.

Hood was the most well-known warship in the world in 1941 and is considered by many to be one of the most beautiful warships ever constructed. The epitome of the battle cruiser type which had proven to be deeply flawed in 1916 at the Battle of Jutland, where three of her kind had blown up with heavy loss of life, she was re-designed on the builder's ways and modernized again in 1931, but was still woefully under-protected compared to a true battleship like Bismarck. Prince Of Wales still carried dockyard personnel aboard and was not yet an efficient fighting unit.

The British and German units converged at dawn, the British Admiral Sir Charles Holland vectored in by two British cruisers which had picked up the Germans during the early hours.
Holland was well aware of the deficiencies of Hood and attempted to close the range as quickly as possible to no avail; a plunging shell from Bismarck struck Hood's lightly-armored amidships and detonated her magazines-the magnificent vessel almost literally disintegrated. There were three survivors of her complement of 1,400 officers and men.

Badly hurt herself, Prince of Wales was able to score one important hit on Bismarck: one of her 14" shells penetrated an oil bunker and Bismarck was forced to steer prematurely for France for repairs. Prince of Wales suffered a direct hit to her bridge killing everyone save the Captain, Leach, and a single seaman; she was forced to retire under cover of smoke.

Ironically this hit ultimately delivered the Bismarck into the hands of the Royal Navy three days later, after one of the most dramatic sea chases in naval history.


I realize of course that this is spectacularly off-topic, but I thought a tale of REAL warfare might lend a sense of perspective to the verbal warfare...

MR

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

@ MR: I'd add that Fairey Swordfish torpedo bombers from the carrier HMS Ark Royal also contributed to the demise of the Bismarck. Most of the planes sent against Bismarck were ineffective, but one scored a hit on Bismarck's rudders, making it impossible to steer the ship. Bismarck was forced to steer in circles, where she became easy prey for the Royal Navy and was eventually sunk.

Al
TRAG

Anonymous said...

Mundo correcto, of course, but I had to stop somewhere...

MR

Bill said...

Excellent commentary, MR, especially juxtaposed to the phony "war on women"

Anonymous said...

When Conservatives say there is no War:

May 24, 1964.

Senator Barry Goldwater (R-Arizona), running for the Republican Party nomination in the upcoming presidential election, gives an interview in which he discusses the use of low-yield atomic bombs in North Vietnam to defoliate forests and destroy bridges, roads, and railroad lines bringing supplies from communist China.

RJ

Anonymous said...

(What happens when the astoundingly ignorant find the today in history button)

Bob Dylan, America's celebrated bard, turns 71 on May 24, 2012.

EO'B trivia- When confronted with writers block this family member recommended listening to more Dylan.

RJ

Anonymous said...

You know, Bill, juxtaposed against your struggle to keep a grip on reality, and the nineteenth century, and your teeth, and your bladder control, I suppose the GOP assault on women's right's might seem phony. Erin, ban me if you must, but an honest cartographer must identify the south end of a north bound horse, and it's name is Bill.
MR

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

Wow. Things have turned quite nasty in here.

Al
TRAG

Bill said...

Yeah,Al. I get this stuff all the time. I try to be civil but the initialed ones just despise me. Wish I could cook.

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

I can teach you how, Bill ...

Al
TRAG

Erin O'Brien said...

Bill, your problem here is that you hurl baseless and inflammatory arguments without any real or significant facts.

I post an excerpt and a link to the personhood movement's site that clearly outlines the group's intentions of getting the IUD and the pill banned and you cite the "phony war on women."

To give that assertion any oomph, you would have had to go to the site and found a reason why they'll never succeed or what makes them harmless.

I'll make it easy. Here's the link again.

This is why everyone slams you as a troll. You're perceived as not offering thoughtful argument. People think you're just trying to piss them off.

Erin O'Brien said...

oops.

"find" not "found"
"arguments" not "argument"

Bill said...

E: I give my opinion on a controversial subject and a person with a different opinion gets pissed off and that's MY problem? Not really. I treat this forum like a conversation. Is it really necessary to google and find a written article to support every opinion? OK, I'm off to my "friends of the friendless" meeting.

Anonymous said...

Troll. It is true Bill that it is your perogative to type out the libretto to La Boheme if you choose and if I am irritated enough to post a response that is my responsibility, not yours. However most people think public policy is best if data based not opinion based. That is why if my opinion is that monkeys that live in my ass think birth control is immoral I will most likely be asked to present evidence of said monkeys prior to being taken seriously in the court of public opinion.

RJ

P.S. Bill. Why not ask Joe if opinions without foundation are useful in resolving public policy questions?

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

A couple of points, if I may ... and this will have to be in two parts. This is part I.

First, speaking only for myself, it's been my experience that anytime during a conversation (here or someplace else) names/labels are applied, the conversation is essentially over. Nothing good comes of it. This includes the use of the word "troll" as well as many others (Teapublican, righty, leftie, racist, homophobe, add your own here if you wish). Others may feel differently about this, but that's been my experience. And yes, I'm guilty of doing that here and elsewhere, but I endeavor as much as I can not to do so.

Secondly, I find the assertion above referencing data based vs opinion based statements interesting. It's interesting in that in the internet age, we have more, faster access to data than every before. A google search will bring up thousands of hits from a thousand different sources and more. Which one(s) is (are) credible? And who are they credible to?

If I were to make a statement here or elsewhere quoting Fox News, The Washington Times, National Review, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Glen Beck, etc., my guess is most here would dismiss such "proof" or "evidence" out of hand. Why? Because we all have pre-existing ideas and thoughts about any number of things, to include people and organizations. From the commentary here from those who lean to the left side of the political spectrum (you know who you are, of course) that I've read in the past, I think it's highly unlikely any of you would accept the above mentioned people/organizations as credible sources (to you). Similarly, if someone used the Huffington Post, MSNBC, Rachel Maddow, Al Franken, Media Matters, The Washington Post, the New York Times, etc. as sources, one could reasonably expect skepticism on the part of those whose political views lean to the right.

End of Part I ....

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

And now Part II for your reading pleasure ....


If I were to make a statement here or elsewhere quoting Fox News, The Washington Times, National Review, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Glen Beck, etc., my guess is most here would dismiss such "proof" or "evidence" out of hand. Why? Because we all have pre-existing ideas and thoughts about any number of things, to include people and organizations. From the commentary here from those who lean to the left side of the political spectrum (you know who you are, of course) that I've read in the past, I think it's highly unlikely any of you would accept the above mentioned people/organizations as credible sources (to you). Similarly, if someone used the Huffington Post, MSNBC, Rachel Maddow, Al Franken, Media Matters, The Washington Post, the New York Times, etc. as sources, one could reasonably expect skepticism on the part of those whose political views lean to the right.

That's the dilemma - finding truly non-partisan, unbiased sources of information. They're out there, but usually the biased/partisan cacophony drowns them out.

12 of the 20 years I spent in the Army were in Psychological Operations (PSYOP, now known as Military Information Support Operations, or MISO. I guess the two flag officers who ordered the name changed have a thing for fermented soybean paste.) The job of MISO/PSYOP is to influence the attitudes and behaviors of foreign audiences. In other words, marketing and advertising, using ideas instead of goods as the product. It's in this light I'd like to touch on one other point.

Information isn't presented by most individuals in an objective manner. It is subjective. One picks out facts, statistics, data etc. and presents them in such a way that they convey a message you want someone or a group of someones to act on in favor of whatever it is you're trying to influence them to do (or not do). Companies do this every day - think of the ads you see on TV, on the internet, in print, on the radio, etc. They're all designed to influence you to change your attitude towards a product, service, television show, etc. so that you'll buy that product or service, watch that show, etc.

On this here blog, we're trying to do the same thing with each other, e.g., influence the thoughts of others as it relates to particular issues. All of us have the ability to pick and choose those things that support our particular positions from any number of sources. As noted above, what might be a credible source to one person may not be to another. Again, this is the dilemma.

I think at some point, no matter how much "proof" or evidence anyone puts here to support their argument, it will fall on deaf ears (and eyes). When that happens, it's no longer worth discussing - kind of like beating a dead horse. I think we may be at that point now, but of course others may not feel that way and I understand that. Ultimately, this is Erin's place, and only she can decide whether to let things continue or lock down the thread.

I will, of course, leave it up to her. Her place, her rules, her choice.

Al
TRAG

P.S. I still think a greasy ass is a bad thing, that garlic scapes rock, and that RJ was holding out on letting us know he had a Hall of Fame worthy baseball career. Oh, that he has a big hot dog named after him by Alice Cooper. ;-)

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

Somehow Part I didn't save. Here it is:

A couple of points, if I may ... and this will have to be in two parts. This is part I.

First, speaking only for myself, it's been my experience that anytime during a conversation (here or someplace else) names/labels are applied, the conversation is essentially over. Nothing good comes of it. This includes the use of the word "troll" as well as many others (Teapublican, righty, leftie, racist, homophobe, add your own here if you wish). Others may feel differently about this, but that's been my experience. And yes, I'm guilty of doing that here and elsewhere, but I endeavor as much as I can not to do so.

Secondly, I find the assertion above referencing data based vs opinion based statements interesting. It's interesting in that in the internet age, we have more, faster access to data than every before. A google search will bring up thousands of hits fromA couple of points, if I may ... and this will have to be in two parts. This is part I.

First, speaking only for myself, it's been my experience that anytime during a conversation (here or someplace else) names/labels are applied, the conversation is essentially over. Nothing good comes of it. This includes the use of the word "troll" as well as many others (Teapublican, righty, leftie, racist, homophobe, add your own here if you wish). Others may feel differently about this, but that's been my experience. And yes, I'm guilty of doing that here and elsewhere, but I endeavor as much as I can not to do so.

Secondly, I find the assertion above referencing data based vs opinion based statements interesting. It's interesting in that in the internet age, we have more, faster access to data than every before. A google search will bring up thousands of hits from a thousand different sources and more. Which one(s) is (are) credible? And who are they credible to?

Al
TRAG

Bill said...

Al: I've probably been the target of more dirisive comments and called more names and wished dead, more than most here. It really doesn't bother me. I think the anonymous nature of the forum removes some of the filtering that takes place in face to face discussion. I frequently have in person political conversation. Once in a while someone gets pissed and leaves but rarely does anyone use the namecalling I see here. I say, let it fly. I try not to call names but that's because I'm a nice guy.

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

All: Sorry for the confusing organization. My response was too big for the site, and I tried putting into two parts. For some reason, some things double posted, and in the case of Part I of my response, didn't post at all. Perhaps our humble hostess can edit it for us all so that my ramblings make sense?

Al
TRAG

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

@ Bill: My point about labels/names was that it really doesn't add anything to the discussion. Once personal invective enters the equation, rational, calm, and well thought out commentary leaves the building. As I said, that's been my experience, though I understand others may not have had the same one.

Of course, this is Erin's site, so she can allow/disallow anything she chooses. I've found her to be (pardon the pun) quite liberal in the type of commentary permitted. Again, her site, her rules, her choice.

Al
TRAG

Anonymous said...

@TRAG.-

Point about labels well taken. I use them as a sort of shorthand. It's intellectually lazy I know. I stand before you a sinner. The back and forth with posters like Joe improves my thinking.

In re: data. We're not trying to demonstrate the existence of the Higgs Boson here For a person to make an unsupported declaration like "There is no war on women" without offering at least some rationale is not useful to the comment thread, IMHO.

The fact of the matter is that since 9/11 the civil liberties of all Americans have been eroded by both Republican and Democratic administrations. Data- The Patriot Act. In spite of recent reports I could still be labeled an "Enemy Combatant" and detained indefinitely without trial.

In re: Your "Psyops" military experience. I regularly feel like a dumbass (label applied to self) for getting pissed about news reports. They ALL have an agenda. I really need about a 3 year spiritual retreat in Dharmsala. When my yound daughter graduates HS I'm gone. Anyone else want to go?

RJ

Bill said...

There is no war on women.
There is a war on unborn babies.

Bill said...

Hilarious Headline:

Milwaukee Mayor Accuses Walker of 'War on Women;' Shares Stage with ‘Bitches who Ride Me’ Rapper

Erin O'Brien said...

There is a war on unborn babies.

And kids like Trayvon Martin.

Why do the righties get all righteous about a fertilized egg, but have no problem shooting innocent unarmed humans with impunity?

Such bullshit.

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

@ Erin: Reference Trayvon Martin, the evidence released thus far seems to support Zimmerman's assertion that he fired in self defense. I'm not saying he did or didn't - that is for a jury to decide. I am saying that I think all reasonable folks should want to see justice done in that case, under the rule of law. Zimmerman will get his day in court, and we shall see whether the evidence is strong enough to convict or acquit him.

Al
TRAG

Bill said...

I don't recall anyone saying or writing that they have no problem with innocent, unarmed, people being shot/killed with impunity. I certainly have not said or written that. I've thought, from the beginning, that Zimmerman may get manslaughter but, it does appear that the prosecutions case is falling apart and it's pretty clear that 2nd degree murder is an over charge. But, an unborn baby, no skittles, no hoodie, no advocate, a couple months from graduating (into the outside world) can't run the other way.

Erin O'Brien said...

The case is falling apart? Really? So now an innocent unarmed kid who fights for his life when approached by an armed stranger should be shot and killed with impunity.

But that's for a jury to decide, as it should be.

You don't get it, do you? The whole stand your ground/kill at will concept flies in the face of "right to life." To give someone an option to use deadly force whenever they "feel reasonably threatened" is pure bullshit.

But fine. Have it your way. We'll keep the discussion focused on that unwanted kid you're so happy to self-righteously force into the world. As soon as he's born into a bad situation, he becomes the predictable object of your derision--a "welfare brat" unworthy of any public assistance.

If the mother and father don't want that kid, who supports it, Bill? You? And if it's born drug-addicted or with a terrible debilitating disease, who pays the for it's care?

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

Anonymous said...

If a U.S. Drone fires a missle that kills a pregnant Afghan female is that a win for The War on Terror or a loss for The War on Unborn Children?

Johnathan Swift had an interesting idea. See "A Modest Proposal" 1729.

RJ

philbilly said...

With my upper case emphasis:

"Stand your ground" governs U.S. federal case law in which right of self-defense is asserted against a charge of criminal homicide. The Supreme Court of the United States ruled in Beard v. U.S. (158 U.S. 550 (1895)) that a man who was "on his premises" when he came under attack and "...DID NOT PROVOKE THE ASSAULT and had at the time reasonable grounds to believe, and in good faith believed, that the deceased intended to take his life, or do him great bodily harm...was not obliged to retreat, nor to consider whether he could safely retreat, but was entitled to stand his ground.

Zimmerman initiated contact with Martin when he exited his truck(forfeiting castle Doctrine defense) and pursued him, against the explicit direction of a law enforcement agent. No clean hands.

Can't decipher Florida's shitty government pages, but in Ohio it's very clear:

"The defendant(in this case a CCW shooter charged with a gun crime) cannot be the first aggressor or initiator."

I don't want thugs or nutjobs or cowboys or wannabe Dirty Harry's holding guns. Period.

And speaking of contraception, what is the conservative take on the asshole with 30 kids and 11 baby-mamas wanting reduced child support. The ignorant fuck has no skills above his waist, and when he works, it's minimum wage at best. His kids get something like a $1.49 per week.

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

Wow. 102 posts and counting!

@ RJ: Interesting that you mention drone strikes. There's been considerable commentary I've received from intel types that I know, and they're not too happy about that whole program. Killing a target means you won't be able to get any further information from them (I won't get into the GTMO/torture issue - a completely different subject). A lot of the intel folks I know view that program as a lost opportunity for that reason.

@ Philbilly: As for the dude with 30 kids and 11 baby-mamas, I'd simply say this - he must be really good in bed, a very slick talker, or a genius at convincing women to sleep with him. As for my take on that whole thing, it's this - he should be made to take responsibility for those kids. If that means he works 20 hours a day, so be it. It's called individual responsibility. You help make the kids? Fine. Now you get to help take care of them and raise them. And no backing out. Those kids are potentially suffering because you couldn't keep it in your pants - well, now you will do just that, and do what you should be doing in the first place, namely, providing for the children you helped bring into the world.

The other thing I'd ask is did any of those women know each other? I mean, they had to know this guy was a less than savory character, right? And they slept with him anyway? Where is the responsibility on their part? Takes two to tango as the saying goes, and we should remember that these women are also responsible for those kids.

What will most likely happen? This guy will walk away scott free, and the women/kids will end up on public assistance programs (welfare, WIC, etc.). In other words, taxpayers will foot the bill for the irresponsible decisions made by this guy and the women he slept with.

Al
TRAG

wv: tourists. Isensu. Uh oh. I'm sensing tourists, and it can't be a good thing .... ;-)

Erin O'Brien said...

Talk about your rose-colored glasses, Al. You can't force people to be good parents. No one likes the idea of unwanted kids, but they're born every day. The best solution to unwanted pregnancy is to have free/low cost accessible birth control.

What's the Right's answer to that? They're doing everything they can to close down and defund Planned Parenthood clinics coast to coast, which will only increase the number of unwanted pregnancies and indigent infants.

Brilliant.

Anonymous said...

Hey E' O. I'll see your defunded Planned Parenthood and raise you the new Tennessee Law that prohibts public school teachers up to 8th grade from discussing "Gateway" sexual activity, like holding hands, with their pupils. Abstinence is the only acceptable option. Given that I'm the neighborhood empiricist I think one could make a good case that human beings of both sexes like to fuck and have been fucking for at least a couple million years without any family planning forethought. Perhaps making birth control easily attainable would be useful in preventing unwanted pregnancy. Tim Tebow and Lolo aside I think there's a fairly simple approach to both sex and abortion. If you don't believe in fucking or abortion, don't do it. Otherwise, STFU.

RJ

Anonymous said...

@TRAG-

Sorry I forgot your point. I guess "Dead men tell no tales" is more a Soprano's principle than a military one huh?

RJ

philbilly said...

Al, your assessment is extremely logical and makes sense, and therefore could not be further from the boots-on-the-ground reality in America's underclass breeding ground.

This new nation within our nation is a parasitic tumor turning out criminals. It was created in large part by a bipartisan parasitic political class that seeks to endure by wrangling votes, e.g., "Vote for me and I'll set ya free." While the poster children have been urban Democrats, the Repubs are equally guilty by conceding passage of bills over the years in order to curry House and Senate votes for their own pork.

Another major factor in the rise of the low is the incessant drumbeat to be a consumer, rather than a creator. The soundbite example is murdering for tennis shoes, but this consumeritis transcends class, all of the socio-economic levels. Difference is, people with the means to create wealth can afford to indulge in consumerism.

Where the populace has been dumbed and drugged down into hopeless superstitious zombies, the fleeting gratification of their trinkets reinforces the bitter void of existence. And there is mighty money to be made. Pre-paid credit cards are coming under Federal scrutiny now, because big banks are falling over themselves to reach 7 million consumers who by 2014 will have purchased 167 Billion, with a B,dollars in goods and services, including malt liquor, rent-to-own furniture and fancy nails. These financial instruments were considered small potatoes for only the worst credit risks for years, now Suzie Ormond offers one.

Meanwhile, the relentless amoral spawning of children ensures that millions will grow up under constant abuse and neglect. But what the hell, they can theoretically vote someday.

The recent screed "Coming Apart: The State Of White America, 1960-2010" does provide some insight into the process, however, the truth is that within every ethnic and multi-ethnic subset of American culture are the elements necessary to reverse the trend. Each group has and continues to succed, even in the face of the current cultural cancer of self-worship. In the absence of any milesones that define coming of age and reaching man- and womanhood, producing babies becomes the rite of passage. Not once, not a single time, have these underclass had to wonder where will the baby's food come from. In fact, the only folks in this miasma who struggle are the ones with the temerity and integrity to be the working poor. Moot Gingrich conveniently overlooks them when he rambles on about values. He knows nothing of standing in several bus stops for hours to get part-time minimum wage, and never know if your door won't be kicked in by a crack head when you get home. Petulant little asshole has the gall to lecture on marriage.

Thankfully there are heterosexual and homosexual men and women who have the fortitude and resources to adopt a few of these damned, a sliver of hope. But only by a return to cultural identity, not sold by download and political propaganda but told by elders who assert authority, will the tide be turned.

Anonymous said...

"...the fleeting gratification of their trinkets reinforces the bitter void of existence. And there is mighty money to be made."-philbilly.

Beautiful. Ergo my contention that Capitalism, by necessity, is an amoral model.

BTW (Being lazy here and not looking it up) Weren't there usury laws on the books in the U.S. up until the mid-19th century that made it illegal to charge interest on loans?

RJ

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

"The best solution to unwanted pregnancy is to have free/low cost accessible birth control."

One low cost method of birth control is abstinence. Another is to go to places like this:

http://bedsider.org/clinics?zip=28314 - this is in my area, no less. Note that two of them are not Planned Parenthood.

You are correct in that you can't force people to be good parents. You can, however force them to legally accept the consequences of their poor choices in life.

"If you don't believe in fucking or abortion, don't do it."

I believe in fucking. I also believe in the consequences such fucking may bring. I also believe in holding those who don't contemplate such consequences accountable for their irresponsible belief that they could fuck without consequences. I don't believe in abortion personally, but I also believe that it is a very personal choice to be made by individuals, not the government or a church. I obviously veer away from the platform of my political party here, as well as my church.

@ Philbilly: I'll respond a bit later - have a carrot-ginger vichyssoise to make.

Al
TRAG

Anonymous said...

@TRAG-

Lest it get lost somewhere in this dialogue let me be clear. I'm 100% down with personal responsibility. If I make a mess it's my job to clean it up. Never missed a child support payment, etc. But in re: human sexuality I'm suggesting that if we create a culture in which abstinence is the only acceptable PRE-Marital alternative to sex that leaves some clandestine, shameful, guilt-ridden option then seems to me we ignore very basic biology. I submit that human beings are HARDWIRED to fornicate. (200 years ago my 14 yo daughter would probably be getting ready to start a family) Out of the breeding population eventually some female is going to end up pregnant. Perhaps if he/she had a solid education in reproductive biology and easy access to birth control some unwanted pregnancies could be prevented even if the parties were engaged in wanton self-serving sexual activity that many would frown upon.

RJ

philbilly said...

RJ,
I submit that human beings are hard-wired to be Capitalists. The moment a baby's lungs are cleared, it wails for warmth, succor, affection. We want what we want when we want it, sometimes it's even what we need.

I submit that I have not defined Capitalism, no indeed, but instead Consumerism, as vile a system that ever fouled human intercourse.

When China was in the midst of the Great Leap Onto Its Face, the commies had to allow small truck farms to exist at the fringes of the massive communal disasters, so that the food producers themselves would not starve. These small, lovingly tended farms flourished, and the seeds of Capitalism were sown.

I submit that Conscious Capitalism is the way forward, where unbridled effort and creativity are checked only by constant scrutiny of the total cost to the system. Adjustments made, plow ahead.

I saw Ted Turner surrounded by Libruls at the City Club recently, and they were heartily dissapointed that he would not take their bait. At one point , he said, "I don't think the economy IS all that bad, all that's needed is for us to work harder."

We have entered the age of the Thinks and the Think Nots. If you are a dumbass and proud of it, posting your silly ass on youtube coughing up cinnamon, you are screwed.
If you can do ANYTHING legit, and show up on a regular basis, man, you got it made.

The most powerful birth control I ever encountered was in my '69 Impala, summer of '73.
I picked her up on time, under the icy stare of her parents from behind the living room curtains. Took her to dinner, then a movie(Sleeper) then we parked by Edgewater. I used everything I had, at last gaining a deliriously soft handhold on the outside of her blouse, a victory. She moaned and writhed, and after a century of time, I was able to move said hand to an inner thigh. Here I was cognizant of a high state of arousal on her part as her skintight Levis darkened perceptibly as I moved cautiously. Here we stayed in perpetual libido limbo, her gently parrying my every attempt to gain ground, simultaneously thwarting my efforts without dinging my ego. Or anything else. Finally, it was late and I returned her to her home intact, albeit disheveled. I remember that herculean effort like it was yesterday.

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

Damn - 110 posts and counting ....

@ RJ: Abstinence isn't the only acceptable option. As my post showed, there are places where folks can go to get free contraception (other than Planned Parenthood). That they don't choose to do so tells me they should be permanently removed from the gene pool (peacefully, I might add) if possible. They'll just go around fucking, producing kids, accepting no responsibility and expecting you and I to pick up the slack.

Yes, humans are hard wired to fornicate. We are also hard wired to do a lot of other things (we all like sugary things, for instance). In the case of fornication, though, too many do so without regard to the consequences.

Here's my suggestion - let everyone know, on TV, in the paper, on line, on bill boards, on the radio, etc. that if you produce a child (man or woman, or both), you're responsible for that child. The government or any other entity isn't going to give you shit in terms of support. You're on your own. Oh, and if you don't provide for that child, guess what? You're going to jail. When you go to jail, your family, friends or anyone else related to you will now provide for that child. Any money you make in prison goes to that child too. When you get out (if you get out) you're still responsible, as is your family.

Think they'd stop fucking then? My guess is no. Some people are just fucking stupid.

Al
TRAG

Anonymous said...

@philbilly-

Capitalism is the system by which the trinkets are produced right? They are produced, in many cases, only to produce surplus value(profit)without consideration of the societal consequences aren't they(toxic waste, diabetes) Are you suggesting "Conscious Capitalism" would eliminate the negative consequences of unthinking consumerism.
BTW if you want to see what unregulated capitalism looks like I agree China is a good example. The air in Beijing is barely breathable.

@TRAG. I see alot of sick and suffering kids in that model. However I'm sure the prison-industrial complex in the U.S. would be delighted with the idea. Anything to increase their census.

RJ

Bill said...

"Meanwhile, the relentless amoral spawning of children ensures that millions will grow up under constant abuse and neglect. But what the hell, they can theoretically vote someday." PB

I think I was amorlly spawned. Is there a group or something?

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

"Amorally Spawned." Name for my next band. Or the next dish I come up with.

Al
TRAG

Erin O'Brien said...

Kudos to both Al and Phil for mentioning the darling daddies out there. So many just love to blame the preggo girls or us silly broads blathering on about our silly birth control.

That is a good link, Al. Things got a little dodgy when I tried to find out what services the two non-Planned Parenthood sites provide and to whom.

Put bad parents in jail, eh? Where we get to pay for their every need.

Give the kid to their kin, eh? What if said kin is in jail or a drug addict or just plain doesn't want that kid?

Abstinence, eh? Didn't work for Bristol Palin or umpteen-and-counting pedophile Catholic priests out there.

Anonymous said...

I've got an idea O'B. The Repugs can just give out vouchers and combine Charter Schools with Private Prisons. Family disintegration solved. I should fucking run for office as a conservative. I'd be a fucking rockstar.

RJ

Anonymous said...

"No matter what drugs you're on, if the people agree with your platform, you can win."

R.I.P. Hunter S. Thompson.

RJ

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

"That is a good link, Al. Things got a little dodgy when I tried to find out what services the two non-Planned Parenthood sites provide and to whom."

I'd have to do a bit more digging, but having lived here for 20 years and the fact that this place has been and will most likely always run by Democrats, my guess is they provide the services they do to anyone who walks in. I could be wrong, of course.

"Put bad parents in jail, eh? Where we get to pay for their every need."

As I noted above, we will most likely be paying for their every need in any event.

"Give the kid to their kin, eh? What if said kin is in jail or a drug addict or just plain doesn't want that kid?"

Obviously we wouldn't give custody of children to relatives with a substance abuse problem.

If the relatives don't want the child .... adoption is always a possible solution (with the individual's family providing financial support). At least the individual who brought the child into the world is being held accountable for their actions/decisions, and they're not out in the world producing children they have no prospect of raising/supporting.

"Abstinence, eh? Didn't work for Bristol Palin or umpteen-and-counting pedophile Catholic priests out there."

Obviously, Bristol Palin wasn't abstaining when she became pregnant. As for the Catholic priests, there is a very special place in hell reserved for them.

Al
TRAG

Bill said...

Over 40% of babies born in the United States, are born out of wedlock. Is this a result of not enough contraception or not enough conservatives?

Erin O'Brien said...

Bill: And what went wrong with missy Bristol Palin?

Now everyone go out and have a holiday BBQ or a walk or a bike ride and if you don't do any of that, go watch today's vid for cryin' out loud.

Bill said...

Hmmm. Maybe there's no Planned Parenthood in Wasilla? Cute little kid though and I bet the family will step up if needed. They're even raising a, gasp, downs syndrome kid.

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

122 posts. This must be a record.

Al
TRAG

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

@ Erin: One of the links was to the Cumberland County Health Department. After a bit of digging, I found this:

http://www.co.cumberland.nc.us/health/family_planning.aspx

Looks like they provide a lot of the same things Planned Parenthood does. Birth control appears to be provided on a sliding scale price-wise, according to number of persons in the household and income. My guess is that those with low incomes don't pay much if at all, but they don't include a price scale on their site. FYI.

Al
TRAG

Erin O'Brien said...

A shining example of one darling unwed daddy.

Anonymous said...

Bristol uses the same vetting process for her paramours as John McCain uses for running mates.


RJ

Al The Retired Army Guy said...

@ Erin: Pieces of shit know no political boundaries. He should be held accountable just like the guy who has 31 kids should be IMHO.

Al
TRAG

Anonymous said...

Interesting point about conservatives @ 3:37. If you're giving it to the entire country up the ass the way Mr Romney wants to with the Ryan budget there's no need for contraceptives...

MR

Bill said...

25 people were shot, last night, in Chicago. I don't know who these people were but I'll go out on a limb and say that they were propbably all black and probably shot by black young men. Here's what I want to know: Where's Al Sharpton? Where's Jesse Jackson? Where's the President? After all, if he had a son he would probably look like some of the victims. Where's the Mayor of Chicago? Where's the outrage? Are conservatives the cause of this?

Anonymous said...

Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and any number of activists speak out about inner city violence and black-on-black crime all the time.

You're just not paying attention...

MR

WV: "Goddard" I kid you not...

Erin O'Brien said...

Congratulations to Bill on offering up perhaps the most off-topic comment of all time. Too bad you didn't manage to get a Bill-Maher-is-sexist reference in there as well.

Bill said...

I think I've had a few even more off topic but the commentary turrets just kicked in and I couldn't help myself. My favorite is President, Commander In Chief, Obama not knowing how to pronounce Corpsman.

Erin O'Brien said...

um ... you might want to check turret vs. Tourette.

Anonymous said...

Wow, Erin, how the hell did you intuit that? You're like a Buffoon Whisperer...

MR

Bill said...

Women will not be punished with an unwanted gender. What a country! Next up: imperfect facial structure. High fives all around!

Anonymous said...

Not everyone in Tennessee is red. Bumper stickers on Soccer Mom Van seen in Nashville yesterday-daughters on board:

"Mind you own Uterus" and "Keep your laws off my body."

RJ

Bill said...

Avove mentioned bumper stickered van probably headed to Planned Parenthood in Knoxville. I was checking out the PP financial statement for 2010 and noticed that they do a good job of making the number of abortions (330k) seem small.
PP website with really interesting financial statements and IRS doc

Anonymous said...

Birth Control Belle Meade (Nashville's Beverly Hills)Style:

“It’s a much broader group, and it should be,” said Carole Nelson, who co-chaired the ball in 1985. “Having the same families marrying into themselves is very limiting in the long-run. I think it’s good to have this influx of new people. New ideas.”
Swan Ball turns 50
Times change, but Nashville's most exclusive party is a constant
Jun 3, 2012 The Tennessean.

RJ

Anonymous said...

"When Money Is Speech Only The Rich Are Free."

Walker outspends Barrett 8:1. No requirement that an incumbent report sources of campaign financing in Wisconsin. Have you felated your neighborhood oligarch today?

RJ

Bill said...

Almost 40 percent of union members voted against recall. Now that really sucks! LOL!

Anonymous said...

What methodology was used to determine this statistic? Or could it have possibly been Walker supporters LIEING to exit pollsters?

"You know what boss just treat me any ole way you want to. I'm just glad you're willing to let me work here. When I was growing up I always wanted to be a wage slave."

RJ

Bill said...

These numbers make no sense. Sharpton is clearly funnier than the Daily Show.

FOXNEWS OREILLY 3,108,000
FOXNEWS HANNITY 2,973,000
FOXNEWS GRETA 2,802,000
FOXNEWS BAIER 2,441,000
FOXNEWS SHEP 2,147,000
FOXNEWS FIVE 1,590,000
CMDY DAILY SHOW 1,516,000
MSNBC MADDOW 1,256,000
CMDY COLBERT 1,226,000
MSNBC SCHULTZ 1,119,000
MSNBC HARDBALL 790,000
MSNBC SHARPTON 771,000
CNN COOPER 630,000
CNN MORGAN 591,000

Anonymous said...

In a nation of 320 million (including that crippling 12 million illegals) I'd say they were all underachieving.

So if there are 10 union members left in Wisconsin and 4 voted for Walker you get 40%.

Means diddly. Money is speech. Only the Rich are free.

RJ

Anonymous said...

Clearly Eli Manning should be President.

Nielsen Estimates Number of U.S. Television Homes to be 114.7 Million.

The Super Bowl set a US television ratings record for the third year running on Sunday night, with an average of 111.3 million viewers watching the New York Giants' last-gasp victory over the New England Patriots.

RJ