tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post4934920325765609670..comments2024-02-15T02:46:48.670-05:00Comments on Erin O'Brien: Obligatory health care rantErin O'Brienhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09089592061725346901noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-64438499712808119942012-07-04T02:24:02.373-04:002012-07-04T02:24:02.373-04:00RJ - Longstreet hesitated because he truly believe...RJ - Longstreet hesitated because he truly believed that an attack against the Union center would fail (proved correct by events). He made these concerns known to Lee, who ordered the attack anyway. When approached by Pickett, who was to be in the center of Pickett's "Charge," Longstreet very begrudgingly gave his assent, merely waving Pickett away, too disturbed to speak. <br /><br />Longstreet has, as you note, been tagged as a scapegoat for Gettysburg. In my opinion, as someone who walked the ground and holds a degree in military history, the blame belongs with Lee. He should never have attempted that attack. J.E.B. Stuart's absence from the battlefield didn't help him. But for someone who many hold as a military "genious," his actions on 3 Jul 63 defy military logic.<br /><br />Al<br />TRAGAl The Retired Army Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-69419051525478754992012-07-04T01:56:50.246-04:002012-07-04T01:56:50.246-04:00While I'm here...
Al will probably have some ...While I'm here...<br /><br />Al will probably have some good data on this but Longstreet was often blamed for the Confederate loss at Gettysburg because he hesitated in executing some orders allowing Union troops to get into better position. Longstreet had not been enthusiastic about another foray into the north. He wanted to take troops west where he though the war was being lost. (See: Vicksburg) Historians today speculate Longstreet was scapegoated for Gettysburg, even though military records do question some of his actions, because after the war he supported Grant for President, as did John "The Gray Ghost" Mosby of Mosby's Raiders fame. After the war he refused to attend memorial services in which it was denied slavery had been the cause of the confederate rebellion. He said he had no remorse about his actions because "a soldier fights for his country. But the war was fought over slavery." Longstreet was one of the last major figures to get a statue at Gettysburg and is still reviled by many in the South.<br />Are we really having this conversation in 2012?<br /><br />RJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-73068388166895602332012-07-04T01:34:18.284-04:002012-07-04T01:34:18.284-04:00@philbilly et al as our journey through the past c...@philbilly et al as our journey through the past continues...<br /><br />One segment of the southern population often ignored in historical accounts is women. White women were totally disenfranchised and only had standing as it issued from their husbands. Early in the war nonslaveholding men were told they were fighting for family and country and in some places 70-80% of the male population went off to war. 'Round about 1863 poor folks started losing enthusiasm for the cause and rates of desertion among confederate troops began to increase. Unfortunately deserters faced the death penalty (See: "Cold Mountain: based on an archive from a desertion tragedy) Poor white women lead food riots in 1863. In occupied towns like New Orleans when a woman would be accused of aiding and abetting the enemy and be taken to jail one of the first things they'd say was "You can't put me in jail, you're trying to treat me like a man." By the end of the war there were many women being held in a sort of legal limbo so ultimately they just declared a blanket amnesty and released them and the legal status of women remained uncertain. Slaves had actually had more status legally prior to emancipation because they were covered by property laws. These are not things school kids in the South are taught. In Re: slavery. You're right it was being banished all through the hemisphere in the 19th century and in correspondence and other archives of the era the slave owners feared a rebellion like Haiti. They also warned that if the slaves were freed they would savagely rape white women because they had no ability to control their base impulses. It's not hard to make the connection between those stories and the "Southern Strategy" of the 1960's and beyond.<br /><br />RJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-85027977040943182742012-07-03T23:05:35.387-04:002012-07-03T23:05:35.387-04:00Two additional points: the ruling classes in the S...Two additional points: the ruling classes in the South gave sparse thought or concern to the fortunes of the poor white working classes, who's descendants, it would seem, now embrace the ideology as paternal in nature.<br /><br />In the North, industry capitalized upon rapid advances in steam power to ultimately begin to dwarf the economic output of the South.<br /><br />Again, the money, the money.philbillynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-27161275407135774942012-07-03T22:52:11.607-04:002012-07-03T22:52:11.607-04:00Regarding the South and slavery, Great Britain abo...Regarding the South and slavery, Great Britain abolished slavery first in 1807, then added teeth to the law by banning its practice anywhere in the Empire in 1833. Abolition was the trend in most of the world, save for the South. <br /><br />In the South, Whitney's cotton gin and its many patent infringed copies launched a massive new industry by allowing inland cotton to be processed, as opposed to the limited crops of tidewater cotton.<br /><br /> As the South shipped cotton even to Egypt, the demand for slaves was met by privateers and pirates, the traditional portbound slavers being forced to scuttle or refit by the Royal Navy. And so an even more brutal trade developed, with the South utterly dependent on it for its wealth.<br /><br />Always follow the money.philbillynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-83876578517135363092012-07-03T22:02:47.609-04:002012-07-03T22:02:47.609-04:00MR is correct. At this point, they'd be firin...MR is correct. At this point, they'd be firing grape shot and canister as well as solid shot. And Winfield Scott Hancock would be shot as well as Lew Armistead. After the battle, Armistead's Bible was given to Hancock's wife.<br /><br />One of the interesting things on one of the staff rides I took was that my boss and my commanding officer at the time were both from the south. As were were stopped in Devil's Den discussing what happened, there, we talked about how things went wrong for the Confederates, and how they could have avoided that problem. My boss, a proud son of Tennessee (his family goes back many generations there) stood up and said, "Sir, you mean we could have taken Little Round Top?" It was not lost on all of us that he said "we" when referring to the Confederate forces. Kind of funny if you ask me.<br /><br />Al<br />TRAGAl The Retired Army Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-32192231281246251842012-07-03T18:41:25.538-04:002012-07-03T18:41:25.538-04:00Ironically Vicksburg was falling to Grant at the s...Ironically Vicksburg was falling to Grant at the same time. The vice was tightening on the CSA.<br /><br />RJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-45657553024414485222012-07-03T16:49:01.636-04:002012-07-03T16:49:01.636-04:00I just noticed the date...Armistead would be appro...I just noticed the date...Armistead would be approaching Cushing's battery right about now...<br /><br />MRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-77353020768491621142012-07-03T16:36:04.058-04:002012-07-03T16:36:04.058-04:00@Al-
Probably no more than a mile from my office ...@Al-<br /><br />Probably no more than a mile from my office on the public square in McMinnville, TN is a historical marker that states, in part: "Not far from here stood the house which Gen. John Hunt Morgan used as his headquarters prior to the start of his ill-fated Ohio raid in the summer of 1863."<br /><br />Of course that was prior to the formation of the Southeastern Conference.<br /><br />RJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-30740888234615435822012-07-03T14:32:57.955-04:002012-07-03T14:32:57.955-04:00@ RJ:
Having lived where I do for the past 20 yea...@ RJ:<br /><br />Having lived where I do for the past 20 years, I think I can say that for a lot of folks the Civil War never ended in many respects. There is still a bit of, uh, disdain for Northerners down here, even 147 years after the fact, particularly if one gets into the deep south (Mississippi, parts of Georgia, Alabama, etc.). Also, anytime a Confederate flag is flown there is a major conflagration it seems. Most have moved on, but others haven't and that is truly unfortunate.<br /><br />It's interesting to me to see some defend the secession of the southern states as an exercise in "states' rights." My reply is usually, "well, what right were they exercising?" I usually hear "the right to self-determination." At that, I respond by saying "to include slavery?" and usually get some hyperbole about how it was never about that. Sure it wasn't.<br /><br />My take is that the issue of slavery, as you note, was the central issue, though not the only issue that led to the secession. For people to deny that is ignoring the obvious, given the historical record in my opinion.<br /><br />BTW, if you ever want to piss off someone who takes pride in their Confederate forbears, simply do this ....<br /><br />Me: "Say, want to see a Confederate salute?"<br />Southerners Who Take Pride in Their Confederate Forbears: "Sure!"<br />Me: (Raises both arms in the air).<br />Southerners Who Take Pride in Their Confederate Forbears: "Damn Yankee!"<br />Me: "Oh, and I'm from Ohio. Grant and Sherman were from Ohio, too."<br />Southerners Who Take Pride in Their Confederate Forbears: "You barbarian!"<br />Me: "You're Welcome."<br /><br />Al<br />TRAGAl The Retired Army Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-64022094340158180692012-07-03T13:42:27.928-04:002012-07-03T13:42:27.928-04:00MR: I give Patton the nod on land over Grant. Gr...MR: I give Patton the nod on land over Grant. Grant was not what I would call a great tactician (his losses bear witness to that), but there is no doubt he was successful. Patton, on the other hand was ahead of his time in that he understood that by attacking quickly ("grab 'em by the nose and kick 'em in the ass") he would not only have fewer casualties, but he'd take ground much faster and keep his adversaries off balance and unsynchronized. Only Patton could have pulled off what his Third Army did during the Battle of the Bulge, for example.<br /><br />Spruance - I would agree he was a great naval commander. Fletcher ranks up there as well.<br /><br />@ RJ: No one would be happy running anything in Burlington, unless they were from there. Trust me on that one. ;-)<br /><br />@ Erin: One can never have enough testosterone. Even in a blog thread ....<br /><br />Al<br />TRAGAl The Retired Army Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-90531973116179762362012-07-03T12:28:45.636-04:002012-07-03T12:28:45.636-04:00@Al...on land, Grant, by a mile. And he was an imm...@Al...on land, Grant, by a mile. And he was an immensely intelligent man as well. His memoirs are fascinating.<br /><br />At sea, Raymond J Spruance, who had the balls to execute the victory at Midway and the wisdom not to overreach. And at the Phillipine Sea, he fought HIS battle, and destroyed the offensive power of the IJN.<br /><br />MRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-27979224122020400162012-07-03T12:05:13.478-04:002012-07-03T12:05:13.478-04:00There is so much testosterone in this comment thre...There is so much testosterone in this comment thread, I'm practically getting pregnant just reading it.Erin O'Brienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089592061725346901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-20973643957124398772012-07-03T12:04:43.268-04:002012-07-03T12:04:43.268-04:00Sounds like Washington would've been happy run...Sounds like Washington would've been happy running an organic foods co-op in Burlington.<br /><br />RJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-85364694441259883042012-07-03T09:48:27.041-04:002012-07-03T09:48:27.041-04:00Ditto on Washington. I don't have anywhere nea...Ditto on Washington. I don't have anywhere near Al's insight and knowledge, but I am awestruck by Washington's story. He never wanted to be a Revolutionary leader, he desired above all else a commission from the Crown as a capstone to his achievements in the wilderness of the Northeast fighting the French. By cheating him out of that honor, the British could not know he would come out of retirement to lead the Colonies. One of the things I like about living in the CLE is our proximity to the locales that figured in his history,for instance The Battle of the Monongahela near Pittsburgh.philbillynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-46160401884245453692012-07-03T09:13:10.014-04:002012-07-03T09:13:10.014-04:00@Al-
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I lo...@Al-<br /><br />Thanks for taking the time to respond. I love those posts. I have never been to Gettysburg but hope to go one day. There's quite a bit of discussion in the historical lit I'vee been reading about the fascination the Civil War holds over the U.S. public. Being from Birmingham I thought I'd left it long behind. But regardless of the valor and romance in the human stories the historical record is clear. The intention of the rich planter slave owners that fueled the secession movement(and it was by no means a slam dunk) was to build a white male nation state that would be the perfection of the white supremacy over blacks. See Alexander Stephens-V.P. CSA- "Cornerstone" Speech given in Savannah in March, 1861.<br /><br />RJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-44522438636957651842012-07-03T02:29:05.243-04:002012-07-03T02:29:05.243-04:00RJ:
BTW, it wasn't the Chambersburg Pike....RJ:<br /><br /> BTW, it wasn't the Chambersburg Pike. It was the Emmittsburg Road. My bad.<br /><br />Al<br />TRAGAl The Retired Army Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-18237095378907662002012-07-03T02:20:54.621-04:002012-07-03T02:20:54.621-04:00RJ:
Lee's men admired him to be sure. In fac...RJ:<br /><br />Lee's men admired him to be sure. In fact, it was his men's confidence in him and his belief that they could do just about anything that played a large part in the defeat of the Army of Northern Virginia at Gettysburg.<br /><br />I've actually been to Gettysburg about four times, and have done two staff rides there (a military tour of a former battlefield, where the battle is studied and lessons from it learned). I've also walked the entire length of Pickett's Charge (not really a charge, BTW) from Seminary Ridge (Confederate lines) to Cemetery Ridge (Union Lines), starting at the point at which Lee met his men after the failure of the attack on the Union Center. It's about a mile or so to walk.<br /><br />What most don't understand is that as you walk the ground, a defilade begins. In other words, the ground slopes downward, making it impossible for the Union troops on Cemetery Ridge at The Angle and the Copse of Trees (the focus of Pickett's attack) to see them as they advanced. However, about halfway through the advance, the defilade ends, exposing troops advancing to musket and cannon fire (the Union had artillery on the high ground on Cemetery Ridge). Couple that with the fence at the Chambersburg Pike (about 400 yards from the Angle and the Copse of Trees) and you have a looming disaster for the advancing Confederates. By that point, the Union troops were essentially firing at point blank range, with canister, grapeshot and musket/rifle fire.<br /><br />It truly must have been a tragic scene to see Lee apologizing to his men. But I must say that the attack should never have happened. The truth is Lee's intelligence as to the Union troop disposition was sorely lacking, due to the fact that J.E.B. Stuart and his cavalry were absent from the battlefield during key times. As such, Lee really didn't know what he faced on the third day of the battle, and as a result, launched an attack that was basically doomed to failure. His belief that his boys could do anything also contributed to the defeat.<br /><br />As I said, Lee was a great commander in the defense (much like Field Marshal Sir Bernard Law Montgomery), but in the offense, he was shown to be lacking. But that salient fact hasn't diminished the awe and respect in which many in the South still regard him. <br /><br />Al<br />TRAGAl The Retired Army Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-16589140049523329702012-07-02T19:18:25.229-04:002012-07-02T19:18:25.229-04:00@Al-
The stuff I've been reading says Lee'...@Al-<br /><br />The stuff I've been reading says Lee's men loved him. Had almost a mystical quality. But could there have been a sadder, more tragic scene than him riding out and apologizing to the survivors of Pickett's Charge?<br /><br />RJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-20404439914531936712012-07-02T17:45:08.255-04:002012-07-02T17:45:08.255-04:00Personally, I think Lee is overrated as a commande...Personally, I think Lee is overrated as a commander. While he was initially successful (Bull Run I and II, Chancellorsville, Fredericksburg) his failure at Gettysburg to accurately read the battlefield ("we hit them on the left and right, they must be weak in the center") cements his reputation as a poor offensive commander in my view. And his offensive campaigns were notable for their lack of strategic goals. He was, however, very good on the defense.<br /><br />Greatest commander in American History? For me it's George Washington. Best tactical/operational commander? Without a doubt, George Patton. Robert E. Lee? Well, he's up there, but again, I still think he's overrated. Kind of like Rommel - great tactical/operational commander, but ....<br /><br />Al<br />TRAGAl The Retired Army Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-67897769402484692272012-07-02T16:56:43.151-04:002012-07-02T16:56:43.151-04:00@James-
No explanation provided
, sorry. Randy J...@James-<br /><br />No explanation provided<br />, sorry. Randy Johnson. No relation to either of which I am aware.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-69009896722117372002012-07-02T16:52:37.128-04:002012-07-02T16:52:37.128-04:00If RJ is Brian Hicks that would explain a lot.
Jam...If RJ is Brian Hicks that would explain a lot.<br />James Old GuyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-28732139132476606982012-07-02T16:28:44.529-04:002012-07-02T16:28:44.529-04:00I just couldn't believe Al wouldn't get in...I just couldn't believe Al wouldn't get in on the military stuff eventually. Believe me Al it has taken me practically all of my 58 years to get comfortable with the truth of the Confederate States of America. I do not mean to suggest that choosing loyalties wouldn't have created psychological conflict for people like Lee but one of the unintended consequences of the relatively lenient terms of surrender-proposed by Lincoln BTW- was to impart a certain legitimacy to the Confederacy that helped spawn the "Lost Cause" ideology we still live with today and which I'm battling a member of the local chapter of Sons of Confederate veterans who told my daughter claims of racism attached to the Stars and Bars are inaccurate. As an example did you know the original Memorial Day Celebration was carried out by freedmen intering corpses of Union war dead in the infield of a horse racing track which now borders the Citadel campus outside Charleston? There is still no marker or acknowledgement of the event on the ground though efforts are underway to do so.<br />"The First Memorial Day."<br />Brian Hicks<br />Charleston Post Courier<br />Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:01 a.m. <br />UPDATED: Thursday, March 22, 2012 This April 1865 photo shows the graves of Union soldiers who died at the Race Course prison camp in Charleston, which would later become Hampton Park. On May 1 of that year, former slaves gave the fallen a daylong funeral.<br /> <br /><br />RJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-1055037039676799092012-07-02T14:02:53.365-04:002012-07-02T14:02:53.365-04:00I would pay good money to hear Al read his comment...I would pay good money to hear Al read his comment above out loud, particularly Tom's quotes.Erin O'Brienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089592061725346901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18122582.post-33055280473971014572012-07-02T13:45:11.326-04:002012-07-02T13:45:11.326-04:00"Fact is, Robert E Lee was a traitor,who viol..."Fact is, Robert E Lee was a traitor,who violated his oath as a graduate of West Point to 'preserve, protect and defend' the Constitution of the United States. When he refused the command of the Army and chose instead to direct his energies towards the welfare of Virginian landholders makes worship of him mind-boggling."<br /><br />When I was in the Officer Basic Course at Fort Benning many years ago, we had a leadership class where we were divided into groups of 6 each. We were given the names of 4-5 captains of history, e.g., Grant, Ghenghis Khan, Wellington, etc. and told to discuss them, then rank them from best to worst from a military leadership perspective. Once we did this, we'd pick someone from our group to brief the rest of the class on our choices, and our reasons for them ....<br /><br />Well, it just so happens that one of the people we got to discuss was Robert E. Lee. We had others, but we ranked him last. And we picked one 2LT Thomas Greco, of Maine, with a distinctive New England accent to brief our findings to the class...<br /><br />Tom stood up, went down the list, and finally came to Lee. With his thick accent, Tom said "and we picked Rahbaht E. Lee as the wooorrst." Our instructed asked why, and Tom said "because he was a traitah to his country." At that, about 15 of our fellow classmates jumped out of their chairs (all sons of the south, from places like the Citadel, North Georgia College, etc.), all looking like they wanted to beat Tom senseless for such blasphemy. The instructors calmed things down, but a few folks followed Tom out to his car after class.<br /><br />Suffice to say people revere Robert E. Lee down here, even today. <br /><br />Al<br />TRAGAl The Retired Army Guynoreply@blogger.com